I think people accept having to reboot a power supply for an apple laptop, because its one of the few issues they have to deal with. With a Windows P.C. it would just be the icing on a huge list of issues. A operating system with an office suite already installed and great software right out of the box is worth rebooting a laptop. Now after tons of spyware,trojans,viruses and having to pay for every god damn thing thats worth running, thats a pain. Most Linux distro's and Mac OSX come with great software for CD burning,Photo Editing, Media Editing, IM, Email Clients, Browsers that can actually pass the acid test, and full featured Office Suites. What do you get with a Windows Laptop? A busted fucking browser that sucks in spyware and shits it all over your OS before you can even finish loading the page. Wordpad and Paint, and some shitty card games. You gotta pay extra for MS Office, and you have to buy or download a ton of software before you can even match the functionality. And Microsoft takes forever to patch shit once its found, and thier coders suck, so its usually not really fixed til the third patch or so. So you end up with a bloated ass OS that crashes all the time. So even though the power supply works great, you gotta reboot anyway. Now for power users like yourself, Im sure you can avoid most malware, but remember we are talking about being "user-friendly". And Windows P.Cs have been anything but that as of late.

Whatch your language!

dude.

Ok.

Why did it take me over 6 hours to install linux on my box. (mandrake.) and then It was SLOW WAY SLOW so I uninstalled it. The Linux os sucks. It did not have all my drivers. It did not work keyboard only. they wanted me to do config via command line install via comand line. no decent desktop search. no speach recognition. No good ide's. NOTHING good about the unstable os. It didn't even support automatic bug reportsthey wanted me to report all 100 or so crash to desktop style bugs on my own. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME!

Ok Randy's rant page not mine... sorry Randy

I think that most people, unfortunately, like the lazy OS, where they dont have to do anything, but thier boxes self destruct all the time. I dont think patches evey week is exactly reliable. Linux is very versatile. There is a distro for anything that you want. And Mandrake (btw its not mandrake anymore) isnt the best, sure, but try others. There's hundreds, and that might sound bad, but it gives you the most options and lets it be more customizable. And we dont have to deal with a self destructing OS that thinks you're too retarded to mess with it. Its all what youre into. If you want a screwed up system, be a winner and use Windows, cause microsoft knows best.

Bunk. They got more to put up with than just a strange power supply - they just continue to eat shit from Apple and say Yum Good! because they feel they *have* to. Very few people take an objective look at XP if they've been on the Apple bandwagon for years. I took and objective look at Apple and invested over $2K in that 12" PowerBook. It was more trouble than it was worth. My Mac mini doesn't get any ire from me - until I have to shell out $130 for the next upgrade to the OS, that is.

Funny though that you mention this as a good thing: "Most Linux distro's and Mac OSX come with great software for CD burning,Photo Editing, Media Editing, IM, Email Clients, Browsers that can actually pass the acid test, and full featured Office Suites. What do you get with a Windows Laptop?"

Why is it that if Microsoft DID include all of that stuff in Windows that they'd be sued for anti-trust violations by multiple governments, yet Apple and Linux can include whatever they want? Look at the EU case (Media Player) and the still going Korean debate (Media Player and IM) where everyone is all kinds of pissed off that such bits are included in the OS. Why are these restrictions only applicable to MS? Should Apple be held to the same standard?

Or is this where - like most Apple fans - ya have to change the topic because it nails ya to the wall? :)

Well Tim, I dont know what kind of piece of crap you tried to install Mandrake on, but a 6 hour install sounds like you machine sucks. I installed SuSE 10 in under 30 minutes, in contrast to XP's 90 minutes. Im guessing it was a while ago, because like Violet says, Mandrake doesn't even exist anymore, they have merged with a couple other distros to form Mandriva. So you probably did that install around the same time Windows 98 or 2000 was around, and those suck in comparison with XP, just like Mandrake sucks in comparison with newer distros.

"My Mac mini doesn't get any ire from me - until I have to shell out $130 for the next upgrade to the OS, that is."
Well at least you have that option, trying to upgrading from 2000 to XP cost me $200 and destroyed half my data with the switch from FAT32 to NTFS. And again, doesnt have anywhere near the software of OSX. And I really don't think Microsoft would get sued if they included it with the OS if they would keep the price the same, but Im sure XP would cost $600 bucks if they included software that was any good. But all the included linux software is opensource and for the most part free of cost. Microsoft releasing anything opensource anytime soon?
Didn't think so, and they wonder why people don't trust them. As far as the Korean case? It shouldn't be that hard for Microsoft to taylor a custom version of their OS for them, especially if it means that they just have to cripple it even more, they are good at that already. But in US, where it matters, we need a solid OS. The only reason microsoft is fighting over it, is because if they dont include that software, then the Koreans will have to buy it from a 3rd party, something that really rubs M$ the wrong way.
And Tim, we are all adults here, I am 21, and Randy is in his 30's, if I want to say "Fuck" I really doubt it will offend anyone. This is a blog site for open minded and intelligent people. Profanity is something children and hippocrits argue about.

Dude, you're completely wrong, proved mostly by your own points.

First off, I lost a bunch of data going from 10.2 to 10.3. 10.3 to 10.4 went fine. As did 2000 to XP. In fact I've got files last "touched" from 1996 on my hard drive... I always back up the data between upgrades in case the OS shits the bed - that's just cautious and wise, IMHO. Hardware/HD problems happen to everyone and every OS. To promote one OS over another on one upgrade attempt is simply ridiculous. It's like saying you'll never buy another Honda again because you got a flat tire while you were trying to changing the tire.

Next, $200 from 2000 to XP. Fine. How may OS upgrades occurred from 2000 to 2005? One that cost money for Windows. Five for Apple. That's $200 versus $645 by my math. Oh, and it's not that Windows hasn't been Rev'd and updated with new features - Microsoft hasn't changed for the Dot Releases between XP to XPSP2 like Apple has for 10.0 to 10.4.

As for you "really don't think Microsoft would get sued" bit, dude... what the HELL do you think the EU did and is still doing? I mean, HELLO? They sued for Windows having a media player included in the OS. Korea is contemplating the same thing for media player and IM. Has Windows ever been itemized so that it's been "x more" for either application? Hah!

The thought that they "can just take it out" is fine and dandy from a technological point of view - in fact OEM's are empowered do such tweaks if they want to, given the initial state of most Dell/IBM boxes I've seen - but do you have any idea as to what that means for other costs at the retail level? Marketing, manufactoring, manuals, product support, and brand/trademark registration? Hell, down to the labels on the discs and GUID/ID creation and registration processes... when it impacts the product line across the entire world? I'm reasonably sure that MS knows what's involved because they just had to do all of that for Windows XP N. And how well is that selling in the EU? According to the public record, no one gives a shit about it: if you don't like WMP on XP proper, you can ignore it and install a different player - I run with three on my boxes.

Further more, all of that doesn't change a very simple fact: Apple can still ship with a media player and IM can. Linux can, if they don't get sued by SCO for being a Linux system. Windows gets shit on for it. That's where I throw a flag: it's bullshit to give praise to Apple for including extra apps when Microsoft isn't allowed to. It's that simple.

Lastly, why is OpenSource even being talking about at all? What does that have to do with Apple users being thrilled by having to reboot an AC Adapter? Meh! Fine, lets look at it a quick second cuz you're contradicting your own argument all over the place. Apple can charge $129 for software, but Microsoft is greedy for charging anything? For fuck's sake, Apple won't even license out their DRM technology and you're bringing up OPEN anything?!

And OpenSource is a ridiculous label slapped all over these days, like it somehow makes things better. Think of it this way. If I put a J2EE server in the trunk of my car and say that my car is J2EE compliant, right? Does it make it a better car? Handle better? Get better miliage? Unless it's a Sun Ultrasparc box that adds 100+ pounds to the weight of the car, it's not doing a damned thing. Good software is good software be it Open or not. I'd much rather have coders that are getting paid (meaning that they were screened to work somewhere) to create an application, rather than opening it to the public. A person is smart; people are stupid. Many hands do not automatically mean software will be made better.

Good God man. Lay off the Penguin Cool-Aid and think about it!

Microsoft has become the one thing they fought against when the company first was founded. MS used to be the underdog, up against the monolith that was IBM. How did microsoft win? By having a better product, they had dedicated workers that cared about making a good product for the good of the people. Microsoft has lost that, they now make a crappy product, because they can. Because most of the market is windows, people have to just eat it. They release a horrid OS with a pretty interface because they assume that most of their users are too stupid to look any further. And XP proves it perfectly. Linux and OSX are written brilliantly, with the future in mind. XP was not written with the idea that people were going to flock to the internet they was they have, blindly and unprotected. Thats not user friendly. Thats my point with open source. Linux was born on the internet, made by power users, like ourselves, but with the idea of making it easy to use for everyone. Open source is much, much more than a label. Its the best thing that ever happened to software.
A person is smart; people are stupid.
Thats why no one trust microsoft and why it will fail within our generation, I guarantee it.
Open source shys away from that mentality.
If Tim made a media player, and I liked it, but found it ugly, The code is avalible to me, and I change it. You like my changes, but need more function, you tweak it, and add more codecs, and rerelease it. And you end up with a much better product than the original. Assuming that people are too stupid to do it, is an insult to humanity, and is overall a very cocky and unhumble attitude.
And Im sorry I went way off topic, but my original point was that, Apple made a better product overall due to software, and a powersupply malfunction is an acceptable albeit annoying issue, when compared to the millions of issues you would run into with a windows laptop. As far as laying off the penguin cool-aid, I would suggest dual-booting for a month, try a good linux distro like SuSE 10.0 and then tell me if its a better product or not.

I'm not even going to bother. You're applying hindsight to problems that didn't exist in the past. To call XP horrid is pretty freakin balsy considering the hoops you have to jump to to use OSX, nevermind most flavors of Unix. Especially when it discounts the entire Update path. XP was designed with the 'net in mind and has been improved and enhanced over time to keep up with the remands of users. Making it sound like "DOS-for-2000" is complete bunk... same goes for Open Source. I've yet to see that process work. Ever. And it's neither cocky nor arrogant to say that people are too stupid to do it because the mass populous doesn't code! You're going to tell me that you want novice users to code? Not in this lifetime.

There's millions of issues with Apple as well. People just don't dwell on them because Apple is "cool". It's about perception - that's the hardest battle for technology to combat. And yes, it still irks the hell outta me.

As for dual booting, I went with OSX, which is arguably the best Linux flavor out there. At best, it was different from XP, but certainly not better. Could it be that I'm used to XP? Possibly, but I've been on at least three dozen OS's over the years: I'm low maintenance. OSX crashed once every day or two, when trying to work with other machines. Had almost no driver support - see my experience with D-Link on the blog. Less accessories available, which was really annoying. Nevermind the hardware problems... I guess part of the $2K was for the heater option. What I discovered is that I HAD to re-learn a bunch of Unix commands - there was no way around it. Stuff like chown and chmod not to mention the whole /bin /usr /var directory structure - if OSX is that good, it shouldn't have to come to that. Networking was a pain in the ass from a lack of DNS support on my home network to having to use SMB crap and SAMBA. I found myself having to spend time configuring and tweaking, more time to jump through hoops, and spend a *lot* more *money* for software that I had on XP but didn't have on OSX. For three months.

That enough of a test with a "good linux distro" that I'm willing to go. I want to use a computer to have a hobby; using the computer itself is NOT a hobby that I wanna bother with anymore.

You're entitled to your opinion - you're just wrong :)

OSX is based on Unix, not Linux. There is a difference.
Wrong my ass, your just toohung up on windows, not to mention microsoft pays your bills. I really think, if you weren't working for microsoft, you would be using a linux distro. XP sucks, from a geek's point of view it's trash, and if you didnt have such a bias, you wouldnt use it. Its more of a chore dodging worms and trojans than it is learning a few new commands. Im not wrong, I have an unbiased point of view, I used windows for the most part of my life, and I even still use it at work, and its garbage, You on the other hand have a very biased point of view. OSX isnt all that great, but its sure as hell better than XP, by leaps and bounds, Sure most people dont code, but a few years ago most people couldnt surf the web either. I think your gonna get left behing Randy, things are not going to stay the same long. Technology moves to fast adapts to quickly, people are getting better, in 10 years I bet everyone is going to know basic code, even if its just something simple, similar to HTML. The Internet is a powerful teaching tool, even my wife learned some commands just goofing around trying to make her blog look cool. You are arrogant, coding is getting easier every day, we dont have to punch it into cards and feed it by hand anymore. Think about it. Im sure some of your co-workers, you wonder how they can even tie thier shoes, and yet they can still code. I think the future will prove you wrong. Coders are not going to be just elite geeks anymore. People are getting more computer literate, and when thier OS sucks they are going to want to fix it, and they will realize that they cant do it with a clossed source platform. Maybe I am wrong Randy, but I guess time will only tell. ;]

This conversation has started at least four years ago on this blog - long before I worked at MS. For instance, I didn't work at Microsoft until a couple of years ago; I've used Windows for over 15 years. I've had this opinion with NeXT was running around, when Rhapsody was a pipedream, and SGI/Irix was the "next big thing". Linux - as with most flavors of Unix - is simply NOT good for PC's. The hardware is too diverse: most companies are unable or unwilling to offer drivers for 18 flavors of Unix/Linux. Setup is a nightmare, in most cases, and when it's not it's still painful. I nearly fell off my chair hte last time I setup RedHat: it took four hours to download all of the patches and updates. Same boat as Windows: can't complain about one without point out the other.

Darwin is Unix. Unix, Linux, same thing, even if Linus didn't write the Darwin kernal.

As for coding, am I arrogant in thinking that laymen will not be able to code? Yes and no. Accountants can write macros. Graphics designers can work with Flash in Lingo. Can a layman write in C++? Doubtful. The question I ask whether or not "anyone" can code - the question I ask is do they want to? That's a no. Big No. Hugely epic No.

I know about history. I've lived a good chunk of it already. I change and I adapt. I started on a Commodore 64 and vowed that IBM compats would always suck at games. I said I'd never need a modem faster than 9600. I said that Q-Link wouldn't take off b/c it was too expensive (before it became AOL). As quickly as things change I still adapt, and usually faster than the norm. This is why I was marking up pages in WML when HDML was still dominant and toying with J2ME when people where creaming over BREW.

Doesn't mean Linux is going to bubble up to the top of the food chain. I still say it won't - like Java before it, there's no Holy Grail to computing, inspite of people passing around the Apple "cup" as the golden shot glass.

Besides, my co workers wonder how *I* tie my shoes and much less code.

Fine, in 10 years, if Windows is still dominant, I owe you a beer, if Linux wins, then you owe me a beer, and if Apple wins, we both jump off the space needle.

Done. :D

If Tim made a media player, and I liked it, but found it ugly, The code is avalible to me, and I change it. You like my changes, but need more function, you tweak it, and add more codecs, and rerelease it. And you end up with a much better product than the original. Assuming that people are too stupid to do it, is an insult to humanity, and is overall a very cocky and unhumble attitude.
And Im sorry I went way off topic, but my original point was that, Apple made a better product overall due to software, and a powersupply malfunction is an acceptable albeit annoying issue, when compared to the millions of issues you would run into with a windows laptop. As far as laying off the penguin cool-aid, I would suggest dual-booting for a month, try a good linux distro like SuSE 10.0 and then tell me if its a better product or not.

You would spend hours rewriting my really crappy code (I don't comment) and then when my next version came out you would be lost...

if it was closed their is a windows win32 dll dealing with ui components that you could use to mod the apperence and then you would barly have to change your code when my next version came out because it would be on a whole nother layer...

And Tim, we are all adults here, I am 21, and Randy is in his 30's, if I want to say "Fuck" I really doubt it will offend anyone. This is a blog site for open minded and intelligent people. Profanity is something children and hippocrits argue about.

I fall into the childeren category at 14. on the "This is a blog site for open minded and intelligent people. " you are so open minded about windows

by the way I installed mandrake 10 on a machien with a gig of low cas ram p4 3.0gig fx 5200 grafix 120gig maxtor hd ect...

I have nothing to say. I use what came with my crap. I like the crap that came with my crap. I am not complaining.